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perennialsorrow wrote:
we love our guns in this country not so much for constitutional reasons as logical ones. logic and reason lead one to believe that there are bad people out there with guns, and the only way to truly be safe is to own one yourself, and know how to use it. the constitution was, however, a very logical document, and the greatest written agreement between man and government ever put down on paper.


Yeah but if everyone has a gun then you aren't really that safe are you. To say you need them to be safe from others that also have guns just sounds like paranoia if you ask me. I mean check the statistics, lots of people are killed with guns in the U.S every year, doesn't strike me as that safe really. More people are killed by guns in the U.S than other countries where you are allowed to own a gun such as Canada. Maybe it's your culture of paranoia that makes you think you all need guns to 'protect' yourselves. I mean this is why you get all these school shootings and things, because of paranoia about people with guns coupled with the fact that guns are easily acquired and readily available. There's an increase in knife crime in the U.K but normal people here feel no urge to carry knives to protect themselves from bad people who also own knives. There are also guns here, in the hands of very bad people and yet we dont really have that much of a problem with gun crime, certainly the normal people here feel no need to own a gun to protect themselves from potential 'bad guys'. It's a vicious circle, if someone reaches into their coat pocket do you feel the urge to shoot them because there might potentially be a gun in there? or are 'bad people' that easy to spot amongst the normal people?


Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:04 pm
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i am not worried about a public shootout, but if there was a shootout in public wouldn't you want some sane people there with guns to stop the shooter? i want to own guns to protect myself from what you call "paranoid people." i call them bad people. i am not one of them, and i feel that the law should allow me to own a gun in the case that these people try to rob or harm me or my family, because, like i said previously, making guns illegal does not stop people from using guns to do illegal things. it is quite simple, really. virginia tech was shot up by a crazed shooter, who killed 32 people. it was a tragedy, but by your logic it would've been impossible because virginia tech (like most universities) had a CAMPUS GUN BAN. how could something like that happen if there was a campus gun ban? wasn't the bastard who killed 32 people then killed himself worried about the consequences of carrying a gun onto campus?! as you can see, i am being sarcastic. obvously if someone reaches into their coat pocket i am not going to bust out my 9, but if that person pulls out a mac 10 and starts shooting, i will do everything in my power to stop him. my efforts will only work if i use a gun. do you think that 32 people would have been killed at virginia tech had there been one other person with a gun to stop that bastard? also, are you just making up the violent crime rate in your country? just because you don't physically see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. do some research before making claims like that. bad people have the right to exist, but if they try to kill or harm anyone close to me using the technology of the gun, i will certainly match their force.

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Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:17 pm
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Oh there is violent crime here, same as everywhere. People are shot, stabbed, chopped to bits, raped etc... here in the U.K just as they are in any other country. There is nowhere near the amount of gun crime here as in the U.S though and that is a fact.
Gun deaths per 100,000 population:

Homicide/Suicide/Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 / 5.92 / 0.36
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 / 0.2 / 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 / 0.2 / 0.02

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic.
If there is some crazed gunman then yes, I'd expect the police to take him out but passers by who also have guns? no, I don't they should own guns 'just in case' someone else has one and wants to shoot people. Nor do I think it's right for passers by to take out the 'bad guy'.
There have been crazed gunmen here, Michael Ryan springs to mind and there have been school shootings too but these are the reasons we don't want guns, not reasons for us to have more of them.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the fewer guns you have in circulation then fewer people are going to be killed by them. But then, nothing is black and white, this is just an internet message board and these are just our opinions and we aren't ever going to agree on subjects like these.


Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:58 pm
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thx1138 wrote:
Oh there is violent crime here, same as everywhere. People are shot, stabbed, chopped to bits, raped etc... here in the U.K just as they are in any other country. There is nowhere near the amount of gun crime here as in the U.S though and that is a fact.
Gun deaths per 100,000 population:

Homicide/Suicide/Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 / 5.92 / 0.36
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 / 0.2 / 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 / 0.2 / 0.02

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic.
If there is some crazed gunman then yes, I'd expect the police to take him out but passers by who also have guns? no, I don't they should own guns 'just in case' someone else has one and wants to shoot people. Nor do I think it's right for passers by to take out the 'bad guy'.
There have been crazed gunmen here, Michael Ryan springs to mind and there have been school shootings too but these are the reasons we don't want guns, not reasons for us to have more of them.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the fewer guns you have in circulation then fewer people are going to be killed by them. But then, nothing is black and white, this is just an internet message board and these are just our opinions and we aren't ever going to agree on subjects like these.


I coudn't agree more.

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Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:40 am
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unfortunately though, the police will not always be there to protect us. in fact, it is very rare that they will be (especially the cops here in the states). the cops didn't even know 32 people had died at virginia tech until the asshole responsible had already blown his brains out. furthermore, if guns are illegal and there are less of them in circulation, the ones in circulation will be used solely for malicious purposes. a law abiding citizen will not take the risk of getting thrwn in jail in order to own a gun for defense. if owning a gun becomes breaking the law, then people will only use guns for unlawful reasons.

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Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:11 am
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i would rather have a heater and some shells than be utterly defenseless.

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Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:20 am
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But I'm not utterly defenceless even though I don't have a gun. I certainly don't feel defenceless and I certainly don't subcribe to the mentality of solving the problems of death by shooting by everyone owning guns.
Only one thing is certain, we will never agree on this subject so is there any point us arguing about it any longer?


Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:51 pm
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I am not sure if I could kill someone if it would safe my own life, even in self defence.

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Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:36 am
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i am not sure if i could kill to save myself, but i could kill to save my family in a second. the unfortunate truth is that if someone wants to commita violent crime odds are they will use a gun. the fortunate thing is that i can have a gun and either match their force, or i can have two guns and double it. owning a gun is the most surefire way to defend yourself or your household from murderers, rapists, and other criminals.

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:05 am
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perennialsorrow wrote:
i am not sure if i could kill to save myself, but i could kill to save my family in a second. the unfortunate truth is that if someone wants to commita violent crime odds are they will use a gun. the fortunate thing is that i can have a gun and either match their force, or i can have two guns and double it. owning a gun is the most surefire way to defend yourself or your household from murderers, rapists, and other criminals.


What are you some kind of vigilante? how fortunate other americans must be to have people like you to defend them. I'm so glad I don't live in rootin' tootin' shootin' america.


Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:26 am
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A picture of this guy on your door should scare away even the worst of sickos!
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:09 pm
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thx1138 wrote:
What are you some kind of vigilante? how fortunate other americans must be to have people like you to defend them. I'm so glad I don't live in rootin' tootin' shootin' america.


you just used ad hominem. please, focus on attacking my argument, not me or my country.

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:13 pm
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also, my family are not just "other americans", they are my family.

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:18 pm
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so what if I did use ad hominem? you just started to sound like dirty harry or something with all this talk of 'matching their force' and 'having two guns to double it' against the horde of murderers and rapists and other criminals just waiting for you to let your guard down so they can enter your house. Is it really that bad in a civilized country like yours? I mean everyone being allowed to own a gun certainly isn't helping to reduce the amount of gun crime and fear of gun crime in your country.


Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:45 am
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There have been several studies that conclude that gun restriction among the general population does not reduce gun crime and or violence. To abolish all guns is just not going to happen especially in the US with the recent supreme court ruling which is an absolute right for every American citizen. Despite this, to get rid of guns anyway still is not possible really. To use this as an arguement is mote. As far as I am concerned every responsible adult should carry a weapon. The Virgina Tech massacre could have been avoided or reduced if this were the case. I have a 20 gauge shotgun in my home and as finances allow, I will be carrying as soon as possible. Also, all you gun tetotallers should think about this. In my city, we have had at least several home invasions were these criminals break-in to homes at night while people are watching t.v. and robbing them. I will not wait to call the police and hope they get here on time to defend me, I will do it myself and will not hesitate to take out any of these individuals. I also take offense at the term "rootin, shoot-in Americans. What will you do, just sit back and say "here you go guys, here's my wallet and there's my wife to rape". Not me!
Also I am a hunter and practice at a shooting range with my stepson. We also take our kids ages 9 to 15 now but they were younger when we started. They are taught gun safety, techniques and the laws. They also observe how to act around all sorts of firearms.
I know there are stauch gun opposers and thats fine and yes Europe and most of the world is gun restrictive which is fine by me. But criminals in these parts still can acquire guns can they not? These are my opinions.

P.S. Thanks Perrenial sorrow for your comparative views!


Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:08 pm
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V-GER wrote:
There have been several studies that conclude that gun restriction among the general population does not reduce gun crime and or violence.


Then can you explain why and how that in britian there is less gun crime when there is gun restriction and more gun crime in the u.s where there isn't? Surely, by the reckoning of these studies, there should be less gun crime in america because everyone can own a gun? Why isn't this the case?


Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:37 pm
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I knew you would pose these questions as others on other boards presented the same bs questions. The studies were from the US and I am not about to answer because I do not have the time to pour over records to answer in a sufficient matter. Let me pose you this question:
Should we get rid of vehicles? They pose 3 times the risk in the US and almost 6 times the risk in the UK of deaths. (from accidents)
As far as an answer, without guns yes the rate of death would probably fall but the criminals will find something else to kill you or you would increase in another statistic weather it be disease or maiming or crippling.


Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:10 pm
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IF you die, you die. Gun or no gun, there will allways be people killing people.

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Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:41 pm
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V-GER wrote:
I knew you would pose these questions as others on other boards presented the same bs questions.


Seemed like perfectly valid questions. I could just as easily say your 'answers' are bs.


Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:28 pm
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thx1138 wrote:
V-GER wrote:
There have been several studies that conclude that gun restriction among the general population does not reduce gun crime and or violence.


Then can you explain why and how that in britian there is less gun crime when there is gun restriction and more gun crime in the u.s where there isn't? Surely, by the reckoning of these studies, there should be less gun crime in america because everyone can own a gun? Why isn't this the case?


O.k. liberal, (I know you are one) I will answer despite you not answering mine. For one there are some 300 gun laws in the US. SOme say its 20,000 but 300 is still quite a few. So the US is very restrictive is this case. Two, just breeze through these two articles I found hear and tell me what you think. I think this supports my debate much better........................ :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm
The article states that as overall gun crime has begun to recede certain areas have seen a rise in gun crime and since the ban in 1997, gun crime has risen over the last ten years. It also says there were 4 times as many knife attacks as gun attacks. Supports my opinion of another way to kill or rob!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007 ... ns.ukcrime
Here is an article stating that a new law is requested that forces people who witness a gun crime must come forward. Forcing people to come forward? If they don't will they put those people in jail and let the criminals go?
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... _rise.html
Here is another one about Manchester gun crime soaring 9 percent in 2007 or maybe 2006 since the article is from 5/25/07.
I also just browsed about ten other articles that say gun crime has risen so who is wrong here Sherlock? I think you need to check your facts and opinions at the door and since I have completely decimated your post what have ye to say? Probably nothing because your post was bs, am I right now............................................. :rofl:


Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:25 pm
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