The Doomed Forum

Your thoughts about l o v e
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Author:  Sygn [ Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Your thoughts about l o v e

Thoughs, opinions, experiences.

Poems, quotes, feelings.

Author:  d.mimøsa [ Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Holy smokes: I'd better not answer this thread in the tired state I'm in right now, no good could come of it... Maybe tomorrow or one of these days. Interesting idea, though. It's a very doomed topic.

Author:  endemoniada_88 [ Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e


Author:  d.mimøsa [ Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Funny: at first I also wanted to post a song, but I didn't find it on YouTube. In a way this probably illustrates the whole point: not finding what you're looking for, and even if you did find it, it wouldn't take you anywhere. :laugh:

But seriously, for me the topic can be summarised quite easily; life would be much easier and far less complicated without the need for it - that is to say, if human nature allowed for being happy and content all by oneself [can you even say that in English?] in the long run. Unfortunately, almost all of us have that need in one form or another, to different extents, and though it may not be present all the time, it will surface eventually. This is all the more frustrating considering the basic biological facts: after all, we're just slaves to basic instincts and the play of hormones. That's not a very poetic or philosophical view, I know. I certainly don't want to reduce it to such plain facts, but sometimes I just think it's so damn unnecessary. Or more precisely, it's unnecessary for it to be so necessary! Feeling the necessity for such thoughts in the first place is very unnecessary too. How much lifetime and energy is lost over it, and we all know it, yet still we can't do a damn thing about it. Am I making any sense?

Off to bed now, it's too late for this! It's always too late! We're a Doom community after all. Why didn't I listen to myself when I said I shouldn't write anything? Or rather, when I wrote that I shouldn't write anything... Hell. We're all trapped in a giant hamster wheel paradox.

Author:  Sygn [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

I unterstand your point. But living with others is in some ways easier and safer. Family, friends... lovers. I dont want to explain it widely, i just wanted to refer to these lifeforms in groups biologically in contrary to your aspects of living alone.

For me personally it feels like a thing im desperately longing for but unable to obtain. I dont know my father, my mother is lesbian and raised me alone. I hate her for she never gave me the feeling of beeing loved. I was always in her way of getting happy. I have a halfbrother (8 years older) to whom the contact is better but he lives far away and its fresh because i met him again 2012 after several years not really having contact.

I cant be alone for a long time. I always miss a person next to me. I stumble from one relationship to another and sometimes really fast, as if i have not any chance beeing master of my destiny. But im not the one who leaves. I hold to strong to the other person and most of them cant handle this. Im not a bad person. They always tell me how great i am. I cant handle these fucking lies anymore...

For me love and pain feels almost the same.. not any growing or changing in 10 years of relationships just shows how much of a kid i am.

Please dont be embarassed by me. I just had to let it out. I want to get rid of my pain and hate... its unbearable.. i cant stand it any more.

I even started writing thoughts and poems. It helps a little but not enough.

Author:  baphomet [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

personally, I think love is evol, when you look at it in the mirror.


Author:  Sygn [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

your smiley is evol too xD

Author:  Merchant of Doom [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Author:  d.mimøsa [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

I'm not really arguing in favour of staying/living alone, my point was rather about relationships in the narrower sense: what sets them apart from friendship is biology and hormones, and probably also a certain need for sharing everyday life, for consistency and stability, someone to turn to whenever necessary. Now all I was trying to say was that it would be easier if it was possible to live without those needs (the biological ones included) because that's where the problem (or pain, as you say) sets in. The problem surely isn't 'love' as such (whatever your definition of it may be), but rather the fact that most of us inevitably have these strong needs, yet they often remain unfulfilled - even when we find someone to turn to, we often find that it doesn't work out, nor does it have the positive effect we were hoping for. We tend to look for these things at the wrong places, and I have now come to believe that much of what we need can actually be found in ourselves. It takes a certain peace with yourself and a certain stability of mind and soul, some sort of self-confidence one might say, to be able to lead a stable and fruitful relationship. Sometimes we hope for one single person to give us all we miss and need, but it can hardly work out that way because that's far too great a burden for any potential partner to bear. That's probably the only piece of "wisdom" or advice I can give you regarding the situation you're describing - the stability you are looking for has to start with you, on the inside. And I do realise that this is very vague and won't help much, it's an experience I've made and I hope that you'll also make it eventually. To be fair, I have to admit that my experience hasn’t brought me far either, but that's due to other circumstances which prevent me from putting it to good use.

In any case, as I said - all these thoughts and experiences wouldn't even be necessary if the phenomenon as such could be erased from the human condition; if we could just relate to one another on the basis of friendships and/or family (I know this is a paradox, but hypothetically) and being totally content and fulfilled. Of course such statements don't really take anyone anywhere, but that's my basic position towards the subject. You can probably deduce that such thoughts never would have surfaced if they didn't have a certain background of frustration etc., I guess it's obvious that people for whom the whole relationship-thing works out prettily won't even look at it from this perspective. So of course it's a very subjective point of view.

Author:  Sygn [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

you know one time i met a psychologist and he believed that when 2 persons are in love there is always one person that loves and one that is only accepting the other. i dont want to say that this is true in every relationship but it may be often the case if there are 2 people together for "not a long time". maybe because of this. maybe you just have to stay away from the other person till he or she is able to love you too. even if its hard. that should at least be a guarantee to meet someone who is not running away after a month...

... i got it *fuck yes*.... now i got the joke with evol.... xD finally.... there is some hope x)

Author:  d.mimøsa [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Yeah? I still don't get it, apart from it sounding kinda funny per se. Never got bapho's humour... :p

I don't think you can 'learn' to love someone; either you do, or you don't. That's why your idea of staying away and waiting is unlikely to work out, I'm afraid.

Author:  Sygn [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

really? there are some couples where one just needed some more time to fall in love. whatever. i just know the other way. someone is falling in love and then slowly losing interest. the first feelings but then they stop and dont go above this. i think its healthier to slowly grow feelings...

there are different types of "love" maybe we could start with that.

i mean the first love when you are interested but dont know the person really good
then the second after that when you get to know the person better
and the third that comes over time when you get used to that person

then theres the love to family, friends, animals, things...

lets analyse this shit :D

Author:  d.mimøsa [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Okay, now I understand what you meant: true, sometimes people seem to fall in love only to find out that they cannot or don't want to go beyond the initial stages of a relationship. I wouldn't necessarily say this is bad (in a moral sense), it's a natural process, although painful. Your differentiation between different kinds of 'love' explains it very well: It's not until the second stage that you can determine whether a relationship may work out in the long run. The hormone rush at the beginning can be very deceiving, and it may well turn out that the two persons, in fact, do not make a good couple at all. In such cases it would be somewhat dishonest to maintain the relationship, i.e. if one of the two realises that it's not right. Still, it happens quite often that such relationships are maintained for quite a while for fear of hurting the partner, although in the end it's much more disrespectful to pretend. On the other hand, there probably are people who are only on the look-out for that first stage and quit the whole thing again after the initial excitement is over. What I find potentially problematic about your concept of slowly growing feelings (despite it being a plausible idea) is that it leaves out the initial stage altogether; true, it's a transient stage, but I believe it's an important one in the forging of a relationship. Who would want to do without all the excitement? It's part of it and can be the basis of strong, emotional memories that can be shared for years to come and create a stronger bond between the partners. On the other hand, if you've known someone for a longer time (as a friend, for instance) and then slowly develop such feelings (let's assume they're mutual), the relationship will probably begin in a similarly euphoric way, so maybe nothing would be lost after all. Besides, generalisations are always problematic - what counts is that it works out in the end and that it feels right, whatever it takes.

'Love' is a very polysemic word, as you've pointed out accurately; it can be used to describe several fairly different emotions. Personally, I tend to use 'affection' or something along the lines rather than 'love' when referring to family, friends etc. I always found it strange that these emotions are lumped together so carelessly when, in fact, they are very different from each other (at least for me). But that's just how language works.

More analysis to follow at some point in the future, I guess...

Author:  endemoniada_88 [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

d.mimøsa wrote:
'Love' is a very polysemic word, as you've pointed out accurately; it can be used to describe several fairly different emotions.

Exactly so. Even leaving out the family/friends/fondness for chocolate teacakes uses of 'love', you're still dealing with some very different beasts here. Pragmatic science dude hereby strips out all the glamour and romance with some low-level analysis...

"Falling in love" is a biochemical attraction, physiologically similar to the effects of cocaine and characterised by elevated adrenaline and sexual hormone levels, plus decreased serotonin. Its purpose is, largely, to create a euphoric and charged state which actively encourages couples to be receptive to mating. The downside is that lowered serotonin also encourages and exaggerates mental behaviours associated with clinical depression, which means that it can have some almighty difficult side-effects for anyone prone to insecurity, neediness or obsession. However, it does have a fairly short-term and finite duration, after which all your bodily secretions return to more-or-less normal levels.

"Being in a long-term relationship" is driven by far lower-level innate and learned behavioural, rather than biological, imperatives - with significant cultural influences (such as the acceptability of polygamy, or the prevalence of arranged marriages etc).

The big difference between the two is choice. You have considerable agency in deciding the terms of the latter, and pretty much no choice at all in the former. They're basically two completely different things, and a massive dose of "love at first sight" chemistry is not any indication that it can (or should) lead on to a stable relationship. If you don't both get the same chemistry at the start, you never will, but - again - that's no indication that you can't form a stable relationship based on more intellectual or emotional compatibilities.

You can develop trust, affection, respect, compromise, understanding - all those things that actually make a partnership work, over time. But it's really quite difficult to set out with that in mind if there isn't a mutual, natural spark to set it all going. What usually happens is you end up with a kind of "you're like my big brother/sister" relationship for at least one of the people concerned. (I've always thought Van Der Graaf Generator's "La Rossa" pretty much perfectly captures that kind of one-sided, unrequited love - and the consequences - perfectly. Better than I could write it, anyway).

As, I think, d.mimøsa said earlier: what you really need in relationships of any kind is to be comfortable at some level with yourself, first. It's easy to view being alone as some kind of failure, or a proof that you are unwanted, undesired, or lacking in worth - or that any company, however desperate, has to be better. But actually, it does none of those things: it's just an uncluttered space, somewhere that you can learn to (metaphorically and actually) look in the mirror and come to terms with what you see. Know your own value, and you can communicate it to others. At least, that's my personal experience!

Sygn wrote:
Please dont be embarassed by me. I just had to let it out. I want to get rid of my pain and hate... its unbearable.. i cant stand it any more.

It's not embarrassing at all. Rather touching, and I hope that you feel better for saying it.
Not that the advice of random people on the internet is always fantastically good value, of course...

Author:  endemoniada_88 [ Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

PS:, d.:


Author:  d.mimøsa [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Yeah, I realise that it's supposed to mean/allude to 'evil', but I still don't 'get' it. Or maybe there's just nothing more to get than that?

Anyway, thank you for clarifying in some detail what I was trying to say earlier. Your pragmatic, scientific analysis of the processes of 'falling in love' vs. 'long-term relationships' explains very accurately what I meant earlier when I spoke about being slaves to biological processes. Equally, we are slaves to the cultural framework we've been socialised with, as you rightfully pointed out. I think I was too lazy to go into further detail about all this, and I never would have managed to sum it up in such a precise and neat way. So you pretty much provided the backbone to the point I was trying to make: that my biggest concern about the topic basically is the wish that I could just liberate myself from those biological and cultural influences.

It's good to see I'm not the only one who has made the experience about self-acceptance etc. What I wanted to add about being alone is that it can also be a very important ability. Everybody needs some space to breathe and prosper, and hours spent all by yourself can be a source of strength. In the long run (at least according to my personal experience) none of the two extremes really works when the other is totally absent. But it can already help to socialise on a regular basis with a handful of people to take some of the weight out of being alone. After that, you can always return to your own realm, reflect on your experiences and concentrate on the things you enjoy. After all, when you're alone you're free to spend your time in whatever way you want, whereas relationships will always require compromises. I've found that even in a relationship it is important to return regularly to that private realm that is genuinely my own. If I neglect it, I become more and more frustrated, which in turn has consequences for the relationship. Imagine two trees that grow next to each other, and instead of growing stronger roots, they only trust that the other with be there to catch them when a storm comes. The roots will rot away pretty soon and both trees will perish.

Author:  baphomet [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

d.mimøsa wrote:
Yeah, I realise that it's supposed to mean/allude to 'evil', but I still don't 'get' it. Or maybe there's just nothing more to get than that?

nothing more than that? Through the looking-glass, there is an inverted world in which reality is made of sham forms and movements; looking into the mirror reveals the dubious nature of appearances; what life gives us to consider is only a part of the truth. The rest lies behind the mask. A part of love is evol if you look deep enough, if you caught it by surprise and force it to face its reflection; like the vampyr in the same situation, its virtue will be deflowered at once and it will appear in its naked truth.

no, in fact, it was just that. :D

Author:  Sygn [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

never trust a klingon (or spider?). :rolling:

Author:  baphomet [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

Sygn wrote:
never trust a klingon (or spider?). :rolling:

for your information and spiritual elevation, this is a drawing by one excellent French artist: Odilon Redon.

Author:  Sygn [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your thoughts about l o v e

merci :;):

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