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Do religion and music mix? 
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Yes i recognize it. As a portuguese you can undertand the latin word «essentia»,it is similar to essência isn't it? And if you try to understand the profound meaning of that what you have? What you can understand of that? What are the most profound and deep themes and subjects of Doom, especialy funeral doom?


Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:44 am
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persist wrote:
clearly, i have never gone through your cd collection, but might i ask what sort of lyrical direction you prefer? lyrics seem to be very important to you.


Yes, lyrics tend to be rather important for me. If you had read my post carefully, you would have noticed the quote of Sonic Architect which basically answers your question. I won't have to repeat myself again, will I?

persist wrote:
my point is that i doubt that you (or most of the other people objecting to trog) would protest nearly as much over an overtly satanic thread. im not defending trog, nor saying that i agree with anything or everything he does, but i think we need to be honest. don't say that you object to religion in music (if everyone on here objected to religion in music there would hardly be a need for a religion sub-forum in a doom metal community) say that you object to christianity in music. it's clear to me that that is what everyone means.


Once again, you obviously haven't read my post, and once again, I on't need to repeat myself again! Stop talking bullshit and making pointless assumptions that are totally unfounded. I have made my point clear enough, I even said explicitly that I can take Christian-inspired lyrics more seriously than Satanic ones. I didn't even object to religion itself, which is something I pointed out twice as well! Shut up, learn how to read and wait with your next posts until you have questioned your nutty prejudices, man! I thought you were a reasonable guy, but now I'm beginning to think that you're an arsehole. Sorry.

If someone feels like banning me for this, feel free. Would be a good opportunity to look for a better forum than this one.

To get back to the regular discussion, I must agree with the first passage of StarlitSanctum's post.

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Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:17 pm
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People should be free to do what they want as long as it hurts nobody, so if people want to mix in religion with music I do not see why not. It probably makes a lot of sense if your are both into whatever deity you pray too and music. And it won't really bother me most of the time either if the music is good and enjoyable.

What I do look upon with a bit of scepticism is how it seems sometimes music is used to promote religion and the music in fact being totally irrelevant to the message. A very religious person I know can totally "rock out" to some of the poorest worst played music just because it is about Jesus. He owns rock, country, even Reggae music that seems not to be written because those people enjoy making that kind of music, but to get "the message across". It to me then just becomes a way to spread propaganda. Much like some other extremists groups use it to spread their message. Once music is used as no more then a billboard to get a message across, with any real care for the music made... that crosses the line for me.

But there also seems to be quite a bit of religious music that is just religious people making music and involving the fact that religion is important for them in their lives into the music.

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Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:46 pm
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As much as I hate organized religion, people can do whatever they want with their lyrics, as long as the musicianship doesn't suffer because of it.

I mean, some of the earliest music around was based purely off of a religious bakround


Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:25 am
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silencioeterno wrote:
Yes i recognize it. As a portuguese you can undertand the latin word «essentia»,it is similar to essência isn't it? And if you try to understand the profound meaning of that what you have? What you can understand of that? What are the most profound and deep themes and subjects of Doom, especialy funeral doom?


I don't believe anything has a profound meaning, that's all. «Meaning» is purely interpretaion. And funeral is not really my cup of doom ;)


Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:19 am
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I couldn't care less what the lyrics are about, all that matters to me (Lyrically (Sp?)) is if they are well written. Probably the only thing that would stop me from listening to good music is a band that supports any animal rights group (And buying there music would support them).

Other then that, I think this disscussion is utterly useless, but I'm bored to death so I might as well post....


Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:47 am
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Pim wrote:
Music is art and as far as I'm concerned there are no boundaries concerning art. Hence religion (or politics) can be mixed within the artform music.
It's up to the listener if he appreciates the music mixed with religion.


Word.


Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:13 am
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I see no problem with religion in music, and I don't believe that you have to believe to truly appreciate it.

Anyone can enjoy Harry Potter, even though they know full well that none of the characters exist.


Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:37 pm
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how old are you?


Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:27 pm
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Sure, religion mixes with everything, the matter is the taste of the cocktail. :;): And religion here is like some cheap booze - must have good ingredients that take over its taste. Just like Trouble or Paramaecium... :p

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Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:47 pm
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As long as the religious message is done in a non-annoying way, I'm OK with it. Otherwise, count me out.

Kind of off-topic:

Can satanism be considered a religion?

Traditionally, satanism has been defined from it's oppossition against Christianity than from a proper theological basis, and La Veyan satanism is more about ethics and philosophy.
Just a thought, I don't mean to be offensive to anyone's beliefs.

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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:47 pm
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Abhorsen wrote:
What I do look upon with a bit of scepticism is how it seems sometimes music is used to promote religion and the music in fact being totally irrelevant to the message. A very religious person I know can totally "rock out" to some of the poorest worst played music just because it is about Jesus. He owns rock, country, even Reggae music that seems not to be written because those people enjoy making that kind of music, but to get "the message across". It to me then just becomes a way to spread propaganda. Much like some other extremists groups use it to spread their message. Once music is used as no more then a billboard to get a message across, with any real care for the music made... that crosses the line for me.

I heartily agree with this statement. I tend to abhor bands that have what would be considered "a good message" (in Christian circles anyway) but have inferior or just plain pisspoor music/craftsmanship as its vehicle and they assume that the message alone will carry them.

When it comes to Doom, there aren't a ton of bands to choose from in Christendom (yet), so me collecting the ones that DO currently exist was part of the initial reason I created the CDA (even though my worst detractors refuse to believe it). Are they all what doom fans would consider superior bands (by our standards)? Probably not, but like I said, there aren't a lot to choose from just yet.

There are many (perhaps even most) folks within the Christian faith who are simply not comfortable listening to music that has lyrics which contradict their beliefs, whether they believe it to be right or wrong to do so. This is not because their beliefs are "false" and easily disproved by the intellectual elite, it has to do with knowing their own limitations and trying to live within them instead of beyond them. Many people use Christian music as a means to bolster their faith in a world that clearly does not offer that kind of encouragement or support. To believe what Christians believe is not easy or pleasant much of the time, so when a support system is created to enhance and protect those beliefs, please know that is its primary function.

Can a Christian live within that man-made support system all of the time? I say no, and no Christian worth their salt would choose to (even though so many try to do just that). This, I believe, is where all of the second-rate, crappy music having substance but no style comes from and why it irritates so many people who don't need it for its primary purpose, which is to comfort and inspire a Christian. The ones who live in that world exclusively have forgotten what it was intended for in the first place and have made it their entire world instead of just an important part of it...and they have also wrongly assumed that it has the power to change and comfort others who don't believe as they do, which is a serious error most of the time, I believe.

While I personally can listen to bands which incorporate ideas outside of my own belief system, I know that many are unable to do so and I wanted to expose them to what I consider superior music within a framework they are comfortable with, rather than have it be ignored entirely...as it has been for a long time. I've seen many Christians I know develop a taste for doom because they were turned on to some of the bands on the CDA, and many of the ones who are comfortable doing so will likely seek out other music in the genre (meaning doom in general).

Anyway, I agree more with of what all of you said than I disagree, particuarly since none of it was worded as attacks against my true motives and actually focused on the issue at hand.

Sorry it took me so long to get to this thread and reply...I guess I missed it when it was made. Not like the CDA has been active since my wife died anyway...no time for side projects these days.

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Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:03 pm
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Acid wrote:
silencioeterno wrote:
But when we come to doom there is nothing about religion in it essence.


oh, the «essence» argument. :laugh:



I say (without getting into the "essence" argument) doom is about union and AT THE SAME TIME about disintegration/isolation.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Etymologically, "religion" means "union" (re-ligare).
Therefore, sects that divide us should not be called religions!

I am all for ancient knowledge/gnosis (archeology rules!).
I am all bored by preachy bands of any style.


I say Doom is my religion hehe!


Mon May 24, 2010 12:43 am
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Sorry for being so blunt. I am just gonna leave these here..


Image


=========================================================


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Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:02 am
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Ihsiin - you are by the very nature of the word "Song" incorrect. Lyrics are integral to a song as those lyrics are sung.
And the construction of a verse-chorus-verse structure is what a band writes the music either for or against, as it has been the predominant structure for more than a century in all kinds of music, popular and otherwise. Instrumental music is a different subject all together, but then those pieces aren't songs, they're "tracks" or "compositions". To intentionally close yourself off to 50% of the songwriter's intent is to not support their artistic expression. Bands compose with both elements in mind -even if they choose to not include much lyrical content, they are considering the option to do or not do.

To take a more subjective line of observation I would argue that good lyrics can improve a song and bad lyrics can destroy a song. For instance, if Manowar lyrics weren't so retarded, I might otherwise enjoy some of their music, but as it happens, I pretty much only listen to them for the comical effect of four guys that take themselves so ridiculously serious. And on the otherhand, the prose element of Ulver's mid-career work made me a bigger fan of their entire output.

From an effort standpoint, it's actually more difficult to compose music that incorporates poetry, and the failure of ability to do so has remaindered several bands to instumentalist status. For some of those bands it has been a godsend, but for me the lack of something to say weakens my appreciation of the musical presentation. I find long-winded noodling to be overly self-indulgent and not very stimulating most of the time. There are and have been obvious exceptions, and I do happen to be a fan of classical music and Jazz which tend to subsist mainly without lyrics (though often with some form of vocal accompaniment), but most Classical compositions have a written narrative meant to cohabit the theme, and almost all early Jazz was a riff on popular music without the vocals. The Jazz fusion movement that followed was a reaction to this and lacks vocals as a statement about the music that preceded it. And, again, in the case of composers like Thelonious Monk and Miles Davis there are scripted words intended to be read on the inner sleeves for the listener to ponder while enjoying the flowing spirit of the improvisations those words inspired.

As for whether music and religion mixes, I would have to say: absolutely, and almost always.

Not much great music has been produced by atheists. Whether Christian, Jew or Muslim, most of the great music (with and without vocals) has been composed and performed by people who believe in a higher power. And most of the rest of it is done so by artists railing against that notion with the volume and furor of a zealot, anyhow.

With much of this forum supported by fans (among which I, too, consider myself to be) of predominantly, intentionally abrasive or atonal music, I risk ridicule but never-the-less posit that Brian Wilson is a musical genius. And while much of the Beach Boys music is rather light, saccharine fare, there is a lot of deep material, too. He called his music "Teenage symphonies to god." And John Lennon, for all of his modern thinking was not an actual atheist.

But to believe that religion can only enter through the lyrics is naive. Most modern song mechanics are built around note and chord progressions that were written decades and centuries ago by composers who were commissioned by churches. Literally every classical composition from the 19th century or earlier was composed by a religious man for religious purpose. Since almost all music since then is derivative of that period of music, the chords of modern day rock/metal/pop music are latter day tributes to hymns and prayers, whether intentional or not. And almost all of the popular music that followed that era -at least the majority of any music that has had any lasting impact, has likewise been composed by or for a religious audience.

That said, the particular faith (or lack of faith) of the composer doesn't hold much importance for me, as long as the melody or progression appeals to me, and so long as the words strung between them aren't moronic or too heavy handed.


Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:30 pm
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If the Church didn't commission so many works, we probably wouldn't even know who J.S. Bach was and others.

If It's good I'll listen to it. I don't care if it's religious or not.

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Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:03 pm
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@ highlysatanic666: excellent post! :beerchug:

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Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:00 pm
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highlysatanic666 wrote:
Ihsiin - you are by the very nature of the word "Song" incorrect. Lyrics are integral to a song as those lyrics are sung.
And the construction of a verse-chorus-verse structure is what a band writes the music either for or against, as it has been the predominant structure for more than a century in all kinds of music, popular and otherwise. Instrumental music is a different subject all together, but then those pieces aren't songs, they're "tracks" or "compositions". To intentionally close yourself off to 50% of the songwriter's intent is to not support their artistic expression. Bands compose with both elements in mind -even if they choose to not include much lyrical content, they are considering the option to do or not do.

To take a more subjective line of observation I would argue that good lyrics can improve a song and bad lyrics can destroy a song. For instance, if Manowar lyrics weren't so retarded, I might otherwise enjoy some of their music, but as it happens, I pretty much only listen to them for the comical effect of four guys that take themselves so ridiculously serious. And on the otherhand, the prose element of Ulver's mid-career work made me a bigger fan of their entire output.

From an effort standpoint, it's actually more difficult to compose music that incorporates poetry, and the failure of ability to do so has remaindered several bands to instumentalist status. For some of those bands it has been a godsend, but for me the lack of something to say weakens my appreciation of the musical presentation. I find long-winded noodling to be overly self-indulgent and not very stimulating most of the time. There are and have been obvious exceptions, and I do happen to be a fan of classical music and Jazz which tend to subsist mainly without lyrics (though often with some form of vocal accompaniment), but most Classical compositions have a written narrative meant to cohabit the theme, and almost all early Jazz was a riff on popular music without the vocals. The Jazz fusion movement that followed was a reaction to this and lacks vocals as a statement about the music that preceded it. And, again, in the case of composers like Thelonious Monk and Miles Davis there are scripted words intended to be read on the inner sleeves for the listener to ponder while enjoying the flowing spirit of the improvisations those words inspired.

As for whether music and religion mixes, I would have to say: absolutely, and almost always.

Not much great music has been produced by atheists. Whether Christian, Jew or Muslim, most of the great music (with and without vocals) has been composed and performed by people who believe in a higher power. And most of the rest of it is done so by artists railing against that notion with the volume and furor of a zealot, anyhow.

With much of this forum supported by fans (among which I, too, consider myself to be) of predominantly, intentionally abrasive or atonal music, I risk ridicule but never-the-less posit that Brian Wilson is a musical genius. And while much of the Beach Boys music is rather light, saccharine fare, there is a lot of deep material, too. He called his music "Teenage symphonies to god." And John Lennon, for all of his modern thinking was not an actual atheist.

But to believe that religion can only enter through the lyrics is naive. Most modern song mechanics are built around note and chord progressions that were written decades and centuries ago by composers who were commissioned by churches. Literally every classical composition from the 19th century or earlier was composed by a religious man for religious purpose. Since almost all music since then is derivative of that period of music, the chords of modern day rock/metal/pop music are latter day tributes to hymns and prayers, whether intentional or not. And almost all of the popular music that followed that era -at least the majority of any music that has had any lasting impact, has likewise been composed by or for a religious audience.

That said, the particular faith (or lack of faith) of the composer doesn't hold much importance for me, as long as the melody or progression appeals to me, and so long as the words strung between them aren't moronic or too heavy handed.


Wow, we're having a discussion that spans over three years, and this is only the third post.
Hmm... I think my position since my initial post as changed slightly, but in the main I stand in the same place.

As for as "songs" go, let us not get hung up on semantics. Perhaps "tracks" would be a better term to more generally refer to pieces of music found on a modern album, but it's the word "songs" that I grew up with and, well, you know, old habits and all that. What I'm really trying to say is that an instrumental track is no more a... valid, for lack of a better word, piece of music than a vocalised one. I do, however, take your point about verse structure being something particularly lyrical. But the words themselves needn't change the actual music, apart from in the obvious regard of what they sound like. I still feel that the music itself has a value independent what the lyrics may be.

I tend to agree with you on the Manowar issue, however. Perhaps if their lyrics weren't so clearly thrust in front of our faces, Manowar might become a little more palatable. After all, Children of Bodom tend (or tended? I've not really been listening to their more recent stuff) to have pretty stupid lyrics, but it never really bothers. Most of the time I haven't a clue what their on about, but it doesn't stop me enjoying the music.

I'm not sure I follow you with the "supporting of artistic expression". I don't see the act of listening to some music as some sort of artist-worship (I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound flippant, this is just the way the words are going) where I am paying homage to the songwriter. Rather, I see it as an appreciation of creative talent and where I see that talent may be solely in the music, it may be solely in the words, or it may be in an inerrant combination of the two; it doesn't really matter since this appreciation is completely subjective. There is no "should" or "must" when appreciating a piece of expression.
I don't agree with you that the words of a song necessarily make up 50% of the songwriter's input. Each individual songwriter considers to what degree lyrics and music are important to his or her song. For the most part I would imagine that most musicians (in the extremer areas metal, at any rate) the music to be dominant. Actually, I have no authority to imagine this. All I can say is that, if I were a musician (which I'm not), I would consider music primary and lyrics secondary in the writing process. None of this really matters, anyway, because the appreciation needn't mirror the artist's intent. Indeed, for the most part, it doesn't.

I also don't agree with your assertion that religion can enter a song through the history of music. Whereas it's certainly true that our modern, western musical theory was developed in an ecclesiastical context, and it's also true that a lot of what we might call "classical" music was religiously motivated, the idea that this somehow imposes something upon modern musicians is wrong. The system of music we have now was originally developed with a religious motive (that is, to embellish hymns and whatnot), but I don't feel it was developed according to any religious ideals; rather, it was in pursuit of harmony. You may feel that this pursuit of harmony is inherently religious, and this is not an unreasonable opinion (after all, the tritone was labelled "the devil in music" for being a particularly unharmonious interval), but personally I feel that harmony is something that transcends religion.
With all that in mind, I can't see how religion can enter music (excepting the rather stretchy observation that western musical theory was developed in the church) in any way other than through words.

This post may be a little messy. I'm sorry, you know how it is.

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Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:57 am
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Post Re: Do religion and music mix?

I got a question.

Let's say there is a muslim doom band, and we all know Islam and Christianity share "some" core values. Could a muslim doom band be part of CDA?

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:17 am
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Post Re: Do religion and music mix?

whatever..i think music and religion are so different like meat and technologic ...except the satanic black metal :]

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:43 pm
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