A Dream Of Poe - The Wraith Uncrowned
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Culture

Just a shame that absolutely nothing remarkable is in there. Piet Mondriaan became famous by drawing squares in primary colours. Van Leeuwenhoek was just a technician who accidentally put his semen under a microscope and got world famous per chance. Harry Mullisch is an arrogant idiot who likes to tell everyone how 'educated' he is while he cannot understand physics or mathematics and writes extremely bad books. Cheese tastes horrible and clogs walk terrible, would one expect otherwise from shoes made of wood?

All that is in there a prime examples of the prætentiousness of popular art, take for example this situation: One owns a Van Gogh painting, the prize item of your collection, worth millions. Suddenly it turns out to be a forgery by carbondating, showing it was actually made fifty years ago. But no one could see it, it was that well imitated. The value will drop dramatically after this, but the painting hasn't changed. It is worth that much not because of the artistic value of the painting, but the name attached to it. Tell me? Where is this any different from having to pay ninety euros for a simple shirt which just happens to have 'Calvin Klein' printed on it?


Mon May 05, 2008 3:56 pm
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What would you consider remarkable?

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Tell me? Where is this any different from having to pay ninety euros for a simple shirt which just happens to have 'Calvin Klein' printed on it?


Should it be different?

many people like brand clothing many poeple don't care for brands, who cares.

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Tue May 06, 2008 8:51 am
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Mordante wrote:
What would you consider remarkable?

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Tell me? Where is this any different from having to pay ninety euros for a simple shirt which just happens to have 'Calvin Klein' printed on it?


Should it be different?

many people like brand clothing many poeple don't care for brands, who cares.
The point more or less is that these people see themselves as 'developed' art experts with a fine taste and laugh at people who do the Calvin Klein stuff but effectively do the same.


Tue May 06, 2008 9:04 am
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frublz wrote:
Mordante wrote:
What would you consider remarkable?

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Tell me? Where is this any different from having to pay ninety euros for a simple shirt which just happens to have 'Calvin Klein' printed on it?


Should it be different?

many people like brand clothing many poeple don't care for brands, who cares.
The point more or less is that these people see themselves as 'developed' art experts with a fine taste and laugh at people who do the Calvin Klein stuff but effectively do the same.


The people who wear Calvin Klein probably laugh at the 'developed' experts. Most people think they have better taste then other people, but I think taste is subjective so all tastes are valid.

People like to look at other people and feel superior, but in the end we are all equal. We are borne, we live, we die and are forgotten.

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Tue May 06, 2008 9:16 am
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Nononono, you are getting this wrongly. They laugh specifically at the practice that they just buy it for the brand. While they do the same.


Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
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frublz wrote:
Nononono, you are getting this wrongly. They laugh specifically at the practice that they just buy it for the brand. While they do the same.


I wanted to broaden the subject. People will laugh/feel superior at other people for certain choices or tastes. But the tastes or choices the made are not that different from the people they laugh at.
People laugh at certain things are people do but if they were in the position of the people they laugh at they would probably do exactly the same thing they ridicule now. Most things we do feel like we do of our own free will but are actually the result of our upbringing, where we want to school, etc etc

Hmmm if I read this it is maybe not really clear what I mean but it will do for now.

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Tue May 06, 2008 10:04 am
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This topic, particularly frublz's argument is so full of phallacies I don't even know where to start. First of all, Piet Mondrian; saying he became famous for painting some squares on a canvas is doing nothing but showing how ignorant you are of art history. It is relevant to look at what kind of art was being made before Mondrian (that would help you understand how groundbreaking his practice is, so you wouldn't find it so outrageous that his squares got so much appraisal), and how he inspired future artists and movements. Therefore, reducing his practice to mere geometry (which in itself was innovative at the time), is disregarding the innovations in terms of dettatchment from observable reality, his extraordinary talent to create balance in composition and colour and, therefore, is to disregard the amazing step he took in deconstructing art itself.

Second, what frublz is talking about is called validation. This affects everything: art, commodities, people, businesses - everything. But you can't say validation in art happens in the same way as it does with fashion brands. Validation in art is a dynamic that exists within the art network (artist, critic/academic, dealer, collector, museum); a work of art, in itself, is simply an object. One could argue, as Marcel Duchamp did in the beginning of the 20th century, that a work of art is only complete when it reaches its audience after having gone through all the different elements of the network. So, yes, if a work of art is considered to belong to a certain movement, or to make a commentary on a particularly relevant current issue, as a critic/academic could argue, and then is absorbed either by the art market, or is bought by a well known collector or is shown in a museum, a sense of credibility is transferred onto the artwork. So there's more than what shapes or what materials an artwork is made of, and for that reason, seing it like that and attempting to construct an argument based on that premise is, well... complete nonsense.

So, no, validation in art and in fashion aren't effectively the same... not at all.

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Wed May 14, 2008 2:07 pm
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Frublz is banned by your sort....why bother

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Wed May 14, 2008 6:45 pm
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Frublz wasn't very entertaining.


Wed May 14, 2008 6:57 pm
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Doominion wrote:
Frublz is banned by your sort....why bother


Your sort? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Wed May 14, 2008 8:04 pm
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haha yeah, you know the 'sort' of which i speak! [ If there was a suspicious looking conspiratorial 'emoticon' i'd use it now] This will have to do :sneaky:
And also a disappearing muslim one for good luck :smokebomb:

Those...filthy ones with authoritah...mods..EUGH!

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Wed May 14, 2008 9:44 pm
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I bother because it's something I'm interested in. And I haven't been a moderator in a while, despite what it says under my nickname.

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Wed May 14, 2008 11:29 pm
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